Has Gor changed?

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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Dyce » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:43 am

Morgus wrote:The incident between the captain of Lady Constance's retinue and Tarl was not a challenge as the captain was forced into it by Lady Constance. Tarl had asked for use of one of her slaves, offering a silver tarsk, and then offering to buy one for a gold tarsk, both sums higher than either would have brought on the block. Lady Constance thought she had been insulted and ordered her captain to beat Tarl. The captain had no choice but to fight Tarl because of the implied insult.

But - that meeting shows an inconsistency in the books.

Near the bottom of page 112 we find:

"Tal," said I, lifting my right hand to them, palm facing the left.

In every other instance of warrior greeting, the palm of the right hand is described as facing inward.

If it were a case of just being ordered to thump on Tarl, then the Captain would have had the whole group attempt to trounce him. He's a captain of an entire retinue of Warriors.

Instead, he did it man to man. Lady Constance ordered him, but by no means was he obligated to do it in the way that he did. She ordered Tarl to be beaten and the Captain took it upon himself to do so alone.

Tarl then asked if he had risen a hand to him, which does not fall into the codes, because for a Warrior to be permitted to slay another, one must lift a weapon, as stated in Outlaw of Gor, even though Tarl remarked that the lady knew nothing of the codes.

So while the lifting of a hand does not fall into the line of the codes, there was still a challenge to be done.

The Captain lost. The woman ordered Tarl to be killed. The Captain refused, stating he had crossed steel with Tarl and that they would withdraw, so as not to spend his men, whom he claimed were not poor warriors.

So, while you see that it was only an order from a woman, I see much more, because the woman continued to order and the men refused after the captain had lost.

A challenge was made. A challenge was lost. Tarl had labored within the right of his codes and had won in the eyes of the Captain and, thus, they departed honorably and respectfully.

Next time, talk about the entire context instead of just taking one little tiny piece to try and make yourself appear so high and mighty, Morgus.
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Theoden » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:03 am

"There was once a man named Dyce. He, unfortunately, and foolishly, argued muchly with a well learned scribe and true proponent of the gorean way of life. One night, his caravan was pillaged and looted, and he died after a falling tarsk fell off the cart wagon and landed upon his head." -- Next Book of Gor


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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Morgus » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:03 am

Yes, Dyce, he did it man to man, but there was no challenge ... the captain was ordered to fight Tarl as the Lady Constance felt she was insulted ... she didn't understand the consequences of her actions ... the captain had mo option but to fight and his honor was on the line ...

If you want context ...

"Forgive me, Lady," said I, "but my need is much upon me."
The two slave girls, bare-armed and veiled, quickly glanced to one another.
"I do not understand," said the graceful figure in the sedan chair. She was free.
I grinned at her. "I have food," I said. "I have water. But I have not had for four days a woman."
She stiffened.
I gestured to the two girls with the free woman. One of them slightly lowered her veil.
"I will pay well for the use of one of these slaves," I said to the free woman.
"They are my personal slaves," she said.
"I will give a silver tarsk for the brief use of one, either that you might indicate," I said.
The warriors looked at one another. The offer was quite generous. It was unlikely that either of the girls would bring so much on the block.
"No," said the free woman, icily.
"Permit me then to buy one," I said, "for a golden tarn."
The men looked at one another, the draft slaves, too. Such a coin would fetch from the block a beauty fit for the gardens of a Ubar.
"Stand aside," said the free woman.
I inclined my head. "Very well, Lady," said I. I moved to one side.
"I deem myself to have been insulted," she said.
"Forgive me, Lady," said I, "but such was not my intent. If I have done or said aught to convey that impression, however minutely, I extend to you now the deepest and most profound of apologies and regrets."
I stepped back further, to permit the retinue to pass.
"I should have you beaten," she said.
"I have greeted you in peace and friendship," I said. I spoke quietly.
"Beat him," she said.
I caught the arm of the captain. His face turned white. "Have you raised your arm against me?" I asked.
I released his arm, and he staggered back. Then he slung his shield on his arm, and unsheathed the blade slung at his left hip.
"What is going on!" demanded the woman.
"Be silent, foolish woman," said the captain.
She cried out with rage. But what did she know of the codes?
I met his attack, turning it, and he fell, shield loose, at my feet. I had not chosen to kill him.
"Aiii!" cried one of the draft slaves.
"Kill him! Kill him!" cried the free woman. The slave girls screamed.
Men shouted with rage.
"Who is next?" I asked.
They looked at one another.
"Help me," said the captain. Two of the men went to him and lifted him, bleeding, to his feet. He looked at me, held between his men.
I stood ready.
He looked at me, and grinned. "You did not kill me," he said.
I shrugged.
"I am grateful," he said.
I inclined my head.
"Too," said he, "I know the skills of my men. They are not poor warriors, you understand."
"I am sure they are not," I said.
"I do not choose to spend them," he said. He looked at me. "You are a tarnsman," he said.
"Yes," I said.
"I thought it would be so," he said. He looked at me. "I give you greetings of the caste of warriors," he said.
"Tal," said I.
"Tal," said he.
"Kill him!" cried the free woman. "Kill him!"
"You have wronged this man," said the captain. "And he has labored within the permissions of his codes."
"I order you to kill him!" cried the free woman, pointing to me.
"Will you permit us to pass, Warrior?" asked the captain.
"I am afraid, under the circumstances," I said, "that that is no longer possible."
He nodded. "Of course not," he said.
"Kill him!" cried the free woman.
"We are six now who can fight," said the captain. "It is true that we might kill him. I do not know. But never have I crossed swords with one such as he. There is a swiftness, a sorcery, a savageness in his steel which in a hundred fights to the death I have never encountered. And yet I now stand alive beside your chair to explain this to you, who are incapable of understanding it."
"He is outnumbered," she pointed out.
"How many will he kill?" asked the captain.
"None, of course!" she cried.
"I have crossed steel with him, Lady," said the captain. "Do not explain to me the nature of swordplay and odds." He looked to his men. "Do you wish to fall upon him, Lads?" he asked, smiling wryly.
"Command us, and we shall attack," said one of the men.
I thought their discipline good.
The captain shook his head ruefully. "I have crossed steel with him, Lads," said he. "We shall withdraw."
"No!" screamed the free woman.
The captain turned, supported by two men.
"Cowards!" she cried.
The captain turned to face her. "I am not a coward, Lady," said he. "But neither am I a fool."

I honestly do not see a challenge ... I see a man commanded to the orders of a foolish free woman ... it also shows Tarl's appreciation of the situation ... all he wanted was a piece of ass, not to be drawn into a fight ... when it came to that, he took control of the situation, and not only prevailed but turned the circumstances around and took charge of the situation ...

I'll overlook the "high and mighty" insult ... that is not my intention ... I do know the books, and, like the Tarl and Kazrak incident in which you were mistaken, I am just taking exception to the challenge in the situation above ... I won't argue against people who fall on name-calling and patronizing insinuations but I can debate the facts ...
"There are no mere points of honor." (24:63)
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Re: Has Gor changed?

Postby Glaucon » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:25 pm

Leah wrote:The culture I'm talking about isn't the Chambri, of that I am sure. It's actually quite warlike, and the women serve as warriors and the men take care of the children and the farms. I just can't remember the name. I do remember that they were pork herders and eaters, not fish eaters, and the Chambri are all about fishing (being a coastal society).

Fair enough. I don't know which one you might mean. The Chambri being from Borneo like you said and being well-known for supposedly having a culture dominated by women did make them the obvious candidate.

My point, however, has little to do with what you're going on about. I am simply reminding you that there is an exception to every rule.

Actually... I don't think there is a real rule that there is an exception to every rule. It is more... a saying that possibly points to the fact that most generalizations (such as the ones embedded in sayings) are not always true, but still true, generally. :o.O:
That's actually what Anthropology is all about. You can try to sociology your way around it, but the simple fact is that different peoples are different.

Yep. Different peoples are going to be different. And all peoples we know of (not counting our own globe-sprawling culture) are or were male-dominated, pretty much, to a lesser or greater degree. I don't think that denying clear propensities shared by all cultures (universals) is what anthropology is all about. If it claims to be a science at all, it should look for the common as well as for the differences. And most anthropologists, do, even if they tend to be fascinated by cultural differences.

Painting the entire globe with a broad brush is foolish at best.

Hmmm, a broad brush, plenty of blue... and let the brush do the work. Probably better than trying to capture too much detail. :thumbup:

Of course, from what I remember of the information in the textbook and what was discussed in the class, the people I'm talking about didn't consider men to be "submissive" and women to be "dominant." That wasn't ever an issue within that small tribe. They simply felt women were better suited to hunting and fighting and men were better suited to the raising of children and farming. Men were not "lesser" than women, and women were not "greater" than men. Both genders needed each other for food supplies and childbearing. :-P

Sorry, but... I have to disagree with that textbook describing that unknown tribe, whichever it may have been. There is a lot of dated and highly subjective rubbish in a lot of textbooks. Reading older text-books like watching Mad Men, a dive into time with it's own ideological angles and fantasies. Textbooks are supposed to be neutral and innocent, but really, they are often far more full of bias, ideology and bad science than the books of even the most opinionated academics.

Of course, you may very well think I am talking out of my ass, that I am trying to defend some male-chauvinistic point of view that asserts that men are dominant because of the natural order and that that is the way it should be. I am actually not. I am merely interested in this topic and did a bit of research on it. Philosophers and explorers have been going on about societies in which women ruled for a very long time, classical 'historians', enlightenment philosophers, adventurers that claimed to have discovered these societies in remote locations, and so forth. And eager anthropologists with a great desire to find a true Matriarchy as well. Clearly, the idea of it is quite appealing. The world would simply be more interesting if it was true that there were societies where the male and female roles were reversed, or that those societies once existed, Amazons and whathaveyou.

Sadly, a boring insistence on actual, reliable reported fact dispels much of illusion. Sorry. I am boring, that way. :|

Of course, do feel free to do your own research. Just be careful trusting everything you read. Unless you prefer the world to be more interesting and diverse than it actually is, of course. :thumbup:

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