Traffic and you

PLEASE READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING!

Does traffic effect your decision on playing at a sim?

Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
User avatar
Sasi
Posts: 756
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:16 am
SL Name: Sasi

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Sasi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:11 pm

Some sims have decent traffic for years, and their owners and admins dont push any kind of sim storyline. Of course, we know that these sims are not for people who have high expectations, as detailed RP, IC conflicts, no IC/OOC mixing, etc.... But their people seem quite happy.

I have personally an issue with people expecting that admins and owners must create sim storylines and events for they find something to play. They are those people who will tell you, when you seek RP partners for a story you have in mind, that no no, they dont want pre-planned RP. But they wait for sim admins write their stories and entertain them. After a few months, it becomes just exhausting because you sacrifice your own stories, just for keeping your people active and happy.

But if more people were just able to write a little intrigue, then, to recruit their own RP partners instead to wait for people find out IC (which is rather difficult, since most of us are not rping 24/24h, and then, let the story goes, maybe would they enjoy more the environment provided by a sim and would tend less after 3 months to go to seek another sim.

Sometimes, it takes just that: Someone with an idea of intrigue, people joining, choosing their camp, their faction, writing their background, and just play it. It's not because you write a general idea, not because you set some bases, that you will decide too, how the story must end, who will win, who will lose. You can pre-plan an intrigue, after, the ongoing, the consequences, etc, are things which will totally escape from your control.

But most people are just unable of that... In Kaelus, I remember people complaining often because they were not involved into the existing storylines. And when we gave them, the names of the story leaders to contact for they discuss about how their character would fit in the story, how they could get started and involved, they replied often "No, I want to find out IC, I dont want to plan anything OOC"... Ok, good luck... Because of course, they didnt find out an IC way....

In Kaelus, I worked my background in a way making plausible for me to be involved in the main intrigue, I contacted the people who could help me, I identified who would be my potential enemies and I started, not afraid to take risks (Theo, maybe, remembers when my character (native of Ko-ro-ba) mocked Ar, with her fighting slaves (one named Marlenus), a day of arena combats, with these poor political captives forced to fight for their lives...). Of course, it didnt turn nicely for her, but that was fun.

And personally, I would love a Gorean sim with a system of houses similar to Game of Thrones, that could work for, perhaps, years, with creative people, new faces joining, old members evolving and growing in their role, their position, etc. People would choose their faction, their house, and then, plot and intrigue to improve their position, but also, be prepared to fail... Which is another epic problem... People don't want to fail.

Malignance tried that... Epic fail....
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:59 pm

Kaitlin wrote:If you bring them up to shore up your position then the onus is on you to ensure that they did indeed agree with your position.


You have been watching too much of The Good Wife. I am not going to argue their position. It seems pretty clear to me that Anarch

Kaitlin wrote:I showed you pretty clearly that Horizon didn't agree that a new meter was the solution.


Ehm.

Glaucon wrote:A new, better meter (and weapons) would be great, might in itself help to attract more male players, but I agree that it is not the real solution.


See?

Kaitlin wrote:Theoden doesn't have to convince me of anything. We are actually in agreement on the small likelihood that those attracted by a new meter would evolve into the type of roleplayers that Gor needs to actually RP on a sim rather than just add to the avatar count. Or did you skip over that too in your reading?


We clearly read something very different. You read Théoden's posts as him cheerleading you. I read him as actually getting the stuff I and others were talking about (as opposed to yourself). And him not wanting to antagonize you by openly disagreeing with you (same as Anarch, really) because he can tell how you'd react (you don't take disagreement very well). I actually read what he typed. He did mention that the 'trickle down' of RP-ers from more game-like Gor environments would be slow. And of course, it would not happen for everyone, though it did for quite a few people posting here (perhaps most) and playing in the sort of para RP sims you like playing in, including the non-gorean ones. Maybe I am really blind, but it seems pretty clear to me he was agreeing with that, not dissenting.

Not that I expect him to back me up on that. And I don't mind him not doing that. Some people are wiser than I am. They know it is not worth it. :thumbup:

Kaitlin wrote:There is a certain amount of trickle up but you are talking a handful.


Yes... a handful. A handful of male, core players that like action, like to initiate stuff, make stuff happen... that sounds like the essential requirement for starting a sim that is going to be successful. A handful can make quite a difference.

If (and this is theoretical, because it won't happen, and if it did happen, you'd be rooting against it working) there was some extra 'action'-related activity (like a great combat system) in Gor and it managed to pull in, say, 100 male players, I'd guess that a portion would go on to learn the basics of RP, maybe going on to learning how to RP with the best of them. That is, if they didn't know already. A lot of 'gamers' do get the RP concept. Many have done some text-RP somewhere, at some point. Not just in SL.

Theoden wrote:From the influx of men into the genre, a few could show promise and 'evolve' (and i use that term loosely) to be solid RPers.


What are you reading?


:confuzed: Eh? What he says. What I have been saying. I read that as him saying that it is quite possible that if there were many people coming in for one thing, a portion, if only a small portion, would move on to enroll into the Kaitlin approved class. There was even another way to read it? Was he being sarcastic, or something?

(And that would be a good thing, because you are more likely to recruit good RP-ers that will living things up that way rather than by throwing our notecards about German Shepherds training submissive women. I mean: the 'typical' way 'btb' gorean sims advertise themselves these days.)

Anyway, this is turning into one of those old-fashioned Glaucon-Kaitlin back-and-forth's that are only about which one is 'right', with quotes from post from previous pages that prove the other person is wrong, etc. Not very interesting. I'll try only to respond to stuff from you in this thread that actually contributes to the discussion.
User avatar
Glaucon
Posts: 2832
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:07 am

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:27 pm

Yeah, well.

Anyway... I think that it is a bit of a moot point. After all these years, I have concluded that the meter or other scripted stuff won't get any better. Not within the venue of SL, at least. So, while I agree with the 'ideal image' of Arc, it doesn't really matter.

The other way to improve things so Gor might be a bit more attractive to a larger group of male players would mean people/sims changing their overall attitude. Enough to make separating IC/OOC, ICA=ICC and conflict-driven RP possible. I am not sure that is 'in the cards' either. But any positive suggestions are probably going to have to be about bringing that about. Or at least on an individual sim or small group of sims.
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1009
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:57 pm

Yes, paragraph roleplay in itself isn't a guarantee of quality.

Nowadays when I get captured in GE I just tend to tell people to not bother roleplaying me because I know it'll be shit anyway. They can just TP me to the cages in an hour when the rescue comes. Sure, some of them can paragraph roleplay, but being fed icecream and your feet tickled as a captive is still facepalm-worthy and "ungorean", or rather unsuitable for the genre, wether they do it in paragraphs or not.

GE is full with good paragraph roleplayers, but a lot of them still deliver... situations which don't belong in the theme or setting of the gorean genre.
User avatar
Anarch Allegiere
Posts: 1009
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:01 am
SL Name: Anarch Allegiere

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:03 pm

Kaitlin wrote: I've played in both and frankly there is very little in the lore that is restrictive beyond clothing.


Quite sure that the main argument in that regard, on this forum, constantly is that FW can only hold power if they're puppets of men or the men let them... and that gorean men wouldn't obey orders from a woman, etc. bla bla...

Something I've often argued against. There's plenty of examples in the books of common gorean schmucks that had to and did listen to their FW superiours. Head of Caste would perhaps not be common, although that might depend from gorean city to city too.

But then we get more to the point of matter that gorean sims never have a power division that goes beyond a High Council of Caste Heads and Administrator / Ubar / Magistrate.

Some independant FW being extremely wealthy? Most people wouldn't really give that much weight or attention, most guys will RP being wealthier than her anyway.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:25 pm

I feel like people just skim my posts.

Theoden wrote:Even as a noob in shinigami with no idea what IC/OOC separation is, at the very least I could still para rp. Of course, that by itself is nothing, but eventually I got into the 'game' of roleplay rather than 'soulplaying' it.


Never said it was the sole thing. You also need a willingness of people to learn how to be good roleplayers. But writing ability is intrinsic.

You have a choice of A: Teaching someone how to write well (years and years of schooling/talent/practice) or B: Telling people so and so is wrong, so and so is right, and how to RP, and hope they learn.

I choose B, because A is rather hard to do.

I never said it was 'just contingent' on writing ability.

Kaitlin wrote:I appreciate the clarification but I'm still not sure I agree. Let's assume there is some truth to your first point regarding FW. What you have stated doesn't apply to slaves who generally prance around gor naked. If the appeal of an RP genre is just to show off your pixels then you have ample opportunity in SL Gor yet it still fails to attract a large number of good roleplayers in this role.



You assume playing slaves and free women are interchangeable. Some good female rpers don't want to play as a slave and prefer to play a free woman that can show off her face and cleavage.


Kaitlin wrote:
On #2 I'm not sure that GoT is really that different in terms of the power of women. Catelyn Stark is a perfect example of just how similar the role of a FW in Gor and GoT actually can be. It holds many of the same limitations or powerful roles unless you are in a very unique position. Those roles are the equivalent of a wealthy FW, Regent or Ubara.


A wealthy FW or general run of the mill Ubara do not have the same amount of power as a GoT noble woman, the queen of dragons, the red priest and all the other 'strong' female roles that seem to be an under running motif in the game of thrones books.

Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.

EDIT ADDED IN: Even if you write off the queen of dragons, red priest , giant blond kings guard woman, and what not, as Talena rare types, you would still see that even amongst common women vs common gorean women, there is a sense of more egalitarian views in how men deal with women. Though gorean men would let their fw run their mouths and respected higher status fw types, if the fw ever fuck up in what's expected of them as a prude fw, that's enslavement for them.

There is not a grand canyon of differences, but there is a difference, and GoT women have more 'power' than Gor women. Sure, there are some Gor FW that owned businesses, slaves, limited caste roles and trade. I am well aware of that and you need not insult me by saying I have a lack of understanding. Women in those situations were uncommon. Most higher casted free women in the books laid about and did not hold a profession. Though many noble women in GoT were the same, there is a higher occurrence of women getting involved and doing stuff than Gor FW.
User avatar
HorizonNinetails
Posts: 394
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:19 am
SL Name: Horizon Ninetails
Caste: Pirate
Role: Scoundrel
Home Stone: Deck beneath my feet

Re: Traffic and you

Postby HorizonNinetails » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:43 am

Theoden wrote:I feel like people just skim my posts.


You have a choice of A: Teaching someone how to write well (years and years of schooling/talent/practice) or B: Telling people so and so is wrong, so and so is right, and how to RP, and hope they learn.

I choose B, because A is rather hard to do.

I never said it was 'just contingent' on writing ability.



I think you can actually bring out the creativity pretty easily. People come to gor and see short posts, and thats all they ever write. If you introduce them to creativity - to expand their horizons, then they start adopting more complicated writing styles. I dont think it takes years to bring out - not for everyone. It didn't for my own writing.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:51 am

Kaitlin wrote:
And I never stated you said it was the only thing.

[...]

I'll repeat. I didn't say you did. I used the word "just" to make my own point crystal clear of why I don't agree about the guy in Rorus being "cultivated". It appears it is you who have chosen to start skimming apparently.




When you put something like this RIGHT AFTER a quote of me, it generally suggests that you are implying that is my position, and you are introducing a counter argument.

Kaitlin wrote:I don't think it is just contingent on writing ability. That may be a factor but it is one of many things that factor into player evolution.






Kaitlin wrote:

You assume playing slaves and free women are interchangeable. Some good rper women don't want to play as a slave and prefer to play a free woman that can show off her face and cleavage.


No that isn't my assumption. I offered a contrast to your position that some roleplayers care more about showing their pixels and that is why they choose GoT. I figured it was a better response than saying "bullshit".



Perhaps I wasn't specific enough. What I meant to say was there are a sizable segment of the quality female roleplayer population who wish to RP as a FW and to also be able to show cleavage and their faces and their pixels, who don't wish to RP as slaves. I wasn't really thinking about the slave role at that point, I was more thinking towards normal women.


Kaitlin wrote:
To reduce the choice of many female players down to whether they can show off their avatar or not strikes me as sexist nonsense. It might explain why many sims don't require a veil in Gor but it doesn't explain why a player who can dress in similar attire chooses GoT over Gor.



No, it isn't sexist. In fact, the same people who argued for the BTB-ness of veils summarized the no-veil people as simply wanting to show off their pixels. These are women who made this argument.

The gor sims that allow no veils are noob sims that GoT players won't play in. The good quality southern gor sims require veils (like kaelus), and turn away a segment of GoT female roleplayers who want to show off their avatar but don't want to be slaves.


Kaitlin wrote:
I'll ask again since maybe I wasn't being clear. What can a noble woman in GoT do that a FW can't do in Gor. Just the run of the mill role.


here you go

Theoden wrote:Last I checked, women in GoT don't get enslaved just because they sleep around.


Imagine if that were in RL. Any sexual expression means they get stripped of all their titles, assets, wealth, clothes, and whipped as if an object. Yeah, I'm pretty sure a society where a man can have a slave suck him off in public but a woman showing even a bit of skin gets put into slavery is very similar to the society we see in game of thrones *sarcasm*.

If you're characterizing the differences as a ditch then I agree. Like I said before, it's not a grand canyon, there aren't major differences but there still are differences.

If we are agreeing on the same thing then I don't get why you don't just agree rather than agree argumentatively.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:55 am

HorizonNinetails wrote:I think you can actually bring out the creativity pretty easily. People come to gor and see short posts, and thats all they ever write. If you introduce them to creativity - to expand their horizons, then they start adopting more complicated writing styles. I dont think it takes years to bring out - not for everyone. It didn't for my own writing.



Perhaps not for everyone but generally, people need to have paid attention in middle school and high school in English class to grasp grammar, sentence structure, vocabulary, and have had practice in creative thinking. All this takes years to develop generally.
User avatar
Theoden
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:20 am
SL Name: Theoden
Caste: Warrior

Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:24 am

Glaucon wrote:
Kaitlin wrote:Theoden doesn't have to convince me of anything. We are actually in agreement on the small likelihood that those attracted by a new meter would evolve into the type of roleplayers that Gor needs to actually RP on a sim rather than just add to the avatar count. Or did you skip over that too in your reading?


We clearly read something very different. You read Théoden's posts as him cheerleading you. I read him as actually getting the stuff I and others were talking about (as opposed to yourself). And him not wanting to antagonize you by openly disagreeing with you (same as Anarch, really) because he can tell how you'd react (you don't take disagreement very well). I actually read what he typed. He did mention that the 'trickle down' of RP-ers from more game-like Gor environments would be slow. And of course, it would not happen for everyone, though it did for quite a few people posting here (perhaps most) and playing in the sort of para RP sims you like playing in, including the non-gorean ones. Maybe I am really blind, but it seems pretty clear to me he was agreeing with that, not dissenting.

Not that I expect him to back me up on that. And I don't mind him not doing that. Some people are wiser than I am. They know it is not worth it. :thumbup:




I pointed out the fact that the trickle up was slow, and later down in the post, i mentioned that there was a few who would trickle up. So technically Kaitlin is right in that we both agree on the fact of relative scarcity of the trickle up effect.

However, there's a subtle but important difference and nuance.
I mentioned the 'few' positively, that there ARE a few men we could cultivate, that people WILL benefit from a better meter. She regarded the 'few', what she renamed 'a handful' negatively, that it didn't matter. Glass half full = me, glass half empty = kaitlin.

My main point however was that it would be way better to just leech good quality traffic from other genres, rather than doing the trickle up effect.

Thus my point was to acknowledge the positive ramifications of a new meter but also note the limitations, while pointing to a better method of accomplishing a goal.

The issue was whether or not a new meter would be good for quality traffic, yes?

Kaitlin and I may have agreed on the same 'fact' of a scarcity of candidates for the trickle up effect, but my view on the benefits of a new meter (should it become successful) is relatively positive whilst pointing toward an even better alternative method, and her view on the benefits was negative and dismissive.

Return to “Debate It.”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron