Traffic and you

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Does traffic effect your decision on playing at a sim?

Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
Yes, I look for places to play based on highest traffic.
10
13%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
No, I look for a city or theme I'm interested in and try playing in that sim.
23
29%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
Other(please explain)
6
8%
 
Total votes: 78
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Danika Stenvaag
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Danika Stenvaag » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:15 pm

Sasi wrote:I play as close as the books as possible, Danika, and I will certainly never suggest a machete as a weapon for a panther girl. And you come troll, but indeed, you didnt piss Violetta off, she just suggested you to go to read the OOC rules. You're just a bad troll, Honey.

And a panther girl who runs to the main dock and sails off, excuse me, Danika, but indeed, I don't think you meet the standards of realism that Violetta prizes so much...



ok love, so if I come to role play on your sim, i'm a troll for wearing a tiny machete that wasn't even exposed, the handle was barely sticking out of a sheath in my quiver - it could have been a dagger for all anyone knew. all the said panther boss had to say was danika take off the machete before we encounter each other and role play. and it would have been gone. no arguments. instead, I was told to get the fuck out of here. I left immediately, hence the quick sail from a legal dock instead of running round the sim trying to find the panther deportation dock. that is the only reason I sailed from the dock, I was about to get ejected and at this point it made no difference if I booked a flight on Alaska airways out of there. I just tried to give it some semblance of an immediate cooperation, the sail was irrelevant, but i sent the post to the boss panther for assurances I didn't just tp out of the middle of a sim...

and yet, I endured an hour of curses and angry shouts from the said boss panther about how I ruined gor. and she said she would have captured me for being without clothes. to which i said I would put up a fight and i'm sure drop you with my bow in self defense if you attacked me, i'm a good bow, to which she said if you did that i would ban you. we rp here, not rely on the meter. huh? but we are wearing the gm meter on the sim. and self modding now? and i'm the troll? arighty love, you win this one. said panther has the entire sim all to one's self. i'll never go back there again.
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Sasi
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Sasi » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:47 pm

Being ejected (and you didnt get ejected) was exactly that you sought for it gives you another reason to whine again on this forum about Fort Laurius.
You claim everywhere that you have 30K traffic, great, so, I dont think you need to go to seek RP in less populated sims especially in one that you don't stop to attack all over this forum. You're transparent.

Second, the main dock is not the only point from which you can TP out, there are two spots in the woods. There is no way justifying that a panther girl who lives normally, already, in the Northern forests, use a boat to visit another territory of these forests. In regard of the Gorean environment, it is totally unrealistic. Don't try to justify yourself about some legal dock. Fort Laurius enforces realism, this sim doesnt have a legal dock for panther girls.

And that Kaitlin said:

Kaitlin wrote:
It shows just how little understanding you have about the genre that you completely missed that my issue was with the idea that a gorean captain would take your naked ass or any other panther girl anywhere for a coin other than transporting them into a cage to be sold for more coin.

Back to the OP. You seem a prime candidate for FOE for a bit. I've said it before but I don't like dealing with kids on an adult forum. That includes college kids.


So, you are GE, Danika, definitely GE, your wonderful sim is GE, and if you are unable to play by decent BTB standards, don't come in BTB sims, especially one like Ft Laurius which has standards requiring that people play as close as possible to the books. Too, as I said, there is nothing forcing someone playing in a BTB sim to engage in role play with a GE character, period.
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Glaucon
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:53 pm

Kaitlin wrote:
Glaucon wrote:But my ideal would still be to have these two elements combined,.


What type of player do you believe this would attract? Roleplayers? Gamers? New to Gor? I'm just curious who you believe this idea would appeal to.


My guess it would appeal to Anarch, Horizon, Treat, Architeusomething, myself, and to most male posters that have posted on this forum. As well as to most male players that have played SL Gor. As well as to many female ones (because there are women playing and enjoying computer games like Skyrim as well). I'd think that this would appeal to the vast majority of Role-players. And it would make role-play a far more attractive proposition to gamers, though I am not sure if it would attract a majority of those. Probably not those that think that RPG-games have too much text and dialogue. Some gamers just want to go it alone, have no other people around. Some just want constant action. Some just want the high-score. Some want to do stuff together, but would not care to play the pretend-game of RP. And some would lack the intelligence, creativity and imagination or language skill required for basic role-playing.

I'd guess that would still leave millions.

The existing users like tea-party gor. (I hate that term BTW).


Yes, a lot of people have been saying they hate that term. I don't get why. Aside from the unfortunate fact that it is also a term used to describe a movement within US politics, it seems to be an apt term, and most here know what it refers to.

For the majority of Gor they are perfectly happy with what they have now.


Are they really? I don't get the impression they are. People in this thread certainly aren't. And I think that nearly everyone in SL Gor would admit that the lack of men is an issue.

I don't see a change in mentality in the cards.


Neither do I. People may see the symptoms, see the problems. But most won't be able or willing to see the causes, let alone do anything about that would require a change in how they behave themselves.
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Frevet
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Frevet » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:20 pm

What a shitload of stupid in this thread from a certain side. Dear lord.

So, here's something that I always wondered about: If so many other genres manage to pull off adventure without needing a meter, why can't Gor, which is supposedly the more violent genre? Why can medieval fantasy sims pull it off with ease and urban sims with relative ease?

I think the answer is: Magic/Modern times. In medieval fantasy sims, your wounds even your DEATH isn't -necessarily- the end of it all. You can be magically healed and if your hand was chopped off some little scars remain. It ight be lengthy and last for weeks, but it does heal in the end if you really want it to. In urban rp, healing methods are far more elaborated, too and chances to survive as well. In Gor, as far as I am concerned, everything is pretty final.

So imho, people are MUCH more inclined to let things happen. The villains get to chop off limbs, they can kill and be all villainy. Sometimes their victims return with scars, sometimes they really do loose the leg. Sometimes they stay dead, sometimes they return. I think the fact that the pressure of finality isn't so huge makes people a lot more inclined to LET STUFF HAPPEN. Goreans rarely let stuff happen. Add to that the often OOCly based relationships, too, and they cling to their characters more than players in other genres.

It is precisely why I moved on in the end. Gorean people are too unwilling to let anything surprising, unpredictable or bad happen to their characters (and I can partially even understand it) because the results are comparably final.

While in medieval fantasy rps many DO take their final death the final wound, the disfigurement, the thoughts of "I can be pretty/alive/n ot diabled again if I really want to IC" probably help.

It's why, too, the reason why several medieval fantasy sims (including mine) included permadeath and no limits allowed as rules now, because the downside of that is pretty clear, too.:D
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:22 pm

Well, as we can see in that other thread, many of the better BTB RPers on this forum started somewhere , generally from the very early days of Gor in onlinism femlaw sims.

There is a trickle up effect that can't be ignored. Many men who are good rpers now had their start with the meter game in the first place. Though some continue to play with the meter, and some have abandoned it completely, it nevertheless doesn't negate that a lot of solid BTB RPers had their start playing with the meter.

If there was a better meter, one more fun, one more skyrim-esque and melee centric, with the collective action problem of sims adopting it overcome, it would bring in more men.

From the influx of men into the genre, a few could show promise and 'evolve' (and i use that term loosely) to be solid RPers.

If you sift through a ton of sewage as opposed to a few gallons, you have an increased chance of more finding more gems. Thus the traffic flows upward... from the Sais-esque type sim upwards to the strict BTB rp sims.

Collectively the traffic could theoretically increase SL Gor wide.

I think Glaucon mentioned that in a thread once a long time ago, about bringing more noobs in and from the influx, you will find more wheat from the chaff. Not in those words though.

The thing is, it takes forever for the sifting to happen or the 'evolution' to happen.

Something better would be to find a way to nab RPers from other genres like Mystara, Game of Thrones and what not, City of Lorkh. That would be a much more efficient way of improving traffic for good quality RP sims. Kaelus had a sizable portion from these non-Gor but good quality sims.

It does seem like a catch 22 though. Those types of players are attracted to para rp and strict ic/ooc separation. But they are needed in the first place to grow the amount of people that value those things.

The game of thrones sim seems to have its ups and downs but managed to maintain a solid traffic. On one hand I would be curious to see if we can learn from this sim (like how they managed to restrict the nobles role without a huge drop in traffic).

On the other hand I feel like they are only benefiting from the genre itself, and Gor as a genre actually hurts itself.

In realm of ice and fire, women did not have to wear veils and had more power than gorean free women. They could push more interesting storylines easier than perhaps your typical SL Gor fw.

In my opinion, Gor is a more male dominated culture than GoT, and thus more storylines are dependent on men pushing them, which they have a shortage of.

Meanwhile in GoT, women could push storylines much easier. Since women make up the majority of SL and of RP sims, this would lead to more storylines and RP being created.

I feel like the typical SL Gor male feels burdened by the responsibility to push storylines for their female counterparts.

A constant trickle of new players is needed because quality roleplayers in all genres get burned out eventually after a couple of months, and need a change of scenery.

The problem is having good quality new players joining and learning the genre. Most newcomers to the Gor genre are low grade beginner roleplayers.

TL;DR More influx of men through meter improvement might lead to a gradual increase in traffic of top tier sims through trickle up, but it takes too long. The genre itself just makes it difficult to recruit the good quality players. A constant recruitment of new players is a must for any sim, but the focus needs to be finding new-to-genre but seasoned roleplayers, rather than new-to-genre new-to-roleplay players.
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Frevet
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Frevet » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:28 pm

@ Theoden: The reason KL upholds their traffic despite the fact their admins are pretty...ahem....is the fact that they are the ONLY established sim of that geographical region. That's about it. People out up with the shit dished at them if there's no alternative. Attempts to raise up other sims of a similar area failed because either the people were clueless, people didn't want to abandon their already established stories OR....they had to realize that the interest in the genre is JUST enough to maintain around 3 sims (of varying regions), but not five. If Gor had 10 sims instead of 200, there would be a lot more traffic and consistent rp, too.

Plus, yes. If you want to attract those players, try not to put them off with the constant mixing of IC and OOC. :P (general you)
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Glaucon
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Glaucon » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:51 pm

@ Kaitlin: I am not interested in searching Anarch's or anyone's post to find supporting evidence of what I took to be their overall position. If they object to what I took them to mean, they can post themselves.

I tried to offer my view of what a lot of (mostly male) players would be interested in. And you disagree, thinking you know better. I don't think you do. At all. But nothing I say is going to persuade you.

Same thing with the trickle-down thing: the idea that a lot of people coming in joining the more game-oriented side might lead some to eventually move on to the more text-RP oriented side. You don't believe that? Too bad.

@ Théoden: Not the 'wheat from the chaff' metaphor (I would not want to call 'gamers' chaff), but yes, I made that point a few times. Maybe you can persuade Kaitlin. She doesn't seem to automatically disagree with you. ;)

I agree that it takes time, though. But the alternative 'route'? Getting people over from non-gor text-only/para sims? That might work for some sims, some of the time. But I think there are far more people leaving Gor to go play on those sims than the other way around, generally. And if you used those sims as your recruitment pool, you'd move the burden of recruiting new people (and you are right, those are very important) to those sims. An RP venue/theme that respects itself should want to do it's own recruiting of new blood, not leech that of other themes.

It is theoretical, but IF the thing sort of thing that Architheumasepitomis mentioned were possible, if SL Gor could create an environment that combined the best of, say, Skyrim and text-only RP, I assure you that a lot of people already at home at pure-text RP would be very interested. Not just people new to RP. But then again, you know that already.
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Anarch Allegiere
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Anarch Allegiere » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:58 pm

Well, Kaitlin is right. I'm on the fence wether or not a new meter with more and improved gameplay would work or not. I'd probably find it fun to play with, and it probably would draw a lot of interest back to SL Gor. But I don't see it happening and it would still not be a guarantee for the roleplay or storylines becoming any better.

I don't think it's a new meter that is the solution, the solution is a different roleplay sim model.

I like the D&D model. Someone is the Game Master and puts his or her time in creating a world and storyline and other people bring the characters to interact and roleplay within that storyline. I actually was quite interested in what Rasenna tried to promise, they seemed like they wanted to try something new but instead they too were like: "Here's the sim, now go on, roleplay... Do your own thing, make your own stories."

When you join a gorean sim this usually doesn't exist. You've got the sim owner, moderator team and you've got the people in it. Most of the time sim owners and moderators don't want to be the game master because they don't enjoy putting all that effort and energy into it for other people's entertainment, which is understandable, but at the same time they will also not allow anyone else to act as the big storyline planner and game master either. Roleplayers are expected all to carry a slight burden of creating the storylines on the sim, without giving them really the tools or power to really shape an environment, events, characters, the full control a Game Master has to legitly let events and storylines transpire. And as a result, people might not feel interested in pushing or creating storylines when they feel they might not have much control over in which direction it goes because they can only play a small part in creating the setting, and it results in nobody creating storylines and everyone getting bored. Lack of direction perhaps...

TLDR: The "here's the sim, now roleplay"-model doesn't work imo.

I'm quite sure this was brought up before but if anything I'd prefer to use a sim as a stage, or multiple stages, for storylines that have a clear beginning and ending in the timespan of a month or less. To continue the storyline a bit every day between xx:00 and yy:00, instead of expecting people to hang around randomly on the sim all day and hope they'll at one point be online together and hope they come up with some roleplay by themselves...

I don't even care much for taking existing non-gorean sims as an example, because even with their 20-30k traffic they still seem like boring places to me. Even when Clearchus had 50k traffic it sometimes felt rather quiet, with 30-40 people hanging around on sim, but nobody really knowing what to roleplay with eachother, or the roleplay they -did- come up with made me facepalm. It's why I felt the need to create an "event" every weekend, to get people out of their houses and give them some form of direction and opportunities to express their characters in.
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:27 pm

Frevet wrote:@ Theoden: The reason KL upholds their traffic despite the fact their admins are pretty...ahem....is the fact that they are the ONLY established sim of that geographical region. That's about it.


Yes the reasoning that Gor sims are so plentiful that it causes a 'spread' of traffic has been around for awhile.

However, consider this: If all gor sims consolidated tomorrow into three sims, sure, there will be a lot of traffic, but how much trash do you have to wade through in one of those KL-esque gor sims? I'm thinking it will look like something from midgaard from the early era.

My point was not traffic in SL gor overall, but rather traffic in quality, and what would boost quality traffic.


offnote: your I <3 rp events are awesome, good job.

Kaitlin wrote:You mentioned evolution but it is not just playing in SL Gor that causes this evolution. It is the interaction with more mature roleplayers. It can't be denied that there are fewer genuine roleplayers and the number continues to grow smaller. Is there even a para sim open ATM?


You are right, it does seem more so that it is the interaction with more mature roleplayers and personal development that creates better roleplay behavior.

However, inherent talent in writing is hit or miss. You can be the best IC/OOC separator and still have horrible to read roleplay.

Even as a noob in shinigami with no idea what IC/OOC separation is, at the very least I could still para rp. Of course, that by itself is nothing, but eventually I got into the 'game' of roleplay rather than 'soulplaying' it. I still occasionally see one or two men in noob sims like Rorus that hold promise and could be cultivated into something more. If there were more 'men', more men with inherent writing ability could be found and trickle upwards.


Kaitlin wrote:
In realm of ice and fire, women did not have to wear veils and had more power than gorean free women. They could push more interesting storylines easier than perhaps your typical SL Gor fw.


Honestly I'm not sure I even understand your logic here. The majority of sims don't require women to wear veils. The idea that women can't create and drive interesting storylines is a falsehood. Male dominance does not mean that every story has to be rooted in a dominant act. A FW can be just as much a catalyst as a FM. (This might be a good OP BTW).



Yes that sentence I wrote was rather badly written. I had a jumble of points in my head and had to write it out in a short time frame (since I was at work and didn't want to be caught posting :P ). That sentence doesn't make sense. Let me rewrite the points I had in my head:

1. In realm of ice and fire, women don't have to wear veils. Thus there is less incident of good female roleplayers that get turned away by the fact that they can't show off their pixels (a lot of women in GE are good roleplayers and can actually stick with IC/OOC separation and roleplay BTB... but they kind of like to be fashionistas as well and put a lot of effort into their avatar face. There are very few good robes of concealment out there as well).

With lax veil/skin/cleavage restrictions, the amount of good female roleplayers increases in KL due to no perceived drawbacks of not being able to show off , and thus the total amount of quality traffic increases.

2. Women in gor IC are weaker in power than in GoT. Thus it is harder to drive storylines. I'm not saying they cannot, I'm saying it is harder. Sure, they can drive their own interesting storylines, but certain aspects of gorean society kind of throws a monkey wrench in things. Male heads of caste. Male high council members. Male leaders. Male officers. Male male male. FW in the books just laid about and did nothing (general statement).

In kaelus at least the women found a way around this, using their imagination and became master puppeteers of puppets, working behind the scenes with their guile and cunning to manipulate men into doing what they want. They could have a hand in politics if they wanted to. But you have to agree, it is a lot harder to depend on a third party to push your political storylines or caste conflict storylines than just doing it yourself. In GoT, the issue is still there, but less so. I'm not talking about dominance here , I'm talking about cultural patriarchy. A female noble in GoT can get a shit load of things done :D A city full of Gor FW puppeteers would only work if there are a decent amount of male roleplayers to be puppets of in the first place.

As for all those gradually evolved male roleplayers leaving Gor, yeah, you're right, they do. Male roleplayer flight sucks :P But they wouldn't go away if Gor attracted more non-gor quality roleplayers to negate the eventual gradual loss of roleplayers being burned out, or leaving for RL.


Glaucon wrote:
I agree that it takes time, though. But the alternative 'route'? Getting people over from non-gor text-only/para sims? That might work for some sims, some of the time. But I think there are far more people leaving Gor to go play on those sims than the other way around, generally. And if you used those sims as your recruitment pool, you'd move the burden of recruiting new people (and you are right, those are very important) to those sims. An RP venue/theme that respects itself should want to do it's own recruiting of new blood, not leech that of other themes.



The only way to jump start a high traffic good quality roleplay sim is not only promotion and a focus on good roleplay, but also an active core of players willing to stay there for more than five or six hours a day. Typically good quality roleplayers would only wait half an hour or an hour for roleplay before they get bored and log off... there has to be a core that would be in effect the 'roleplayers of last resort' if they couldn't find anyone to RP with during that hour of waiting.

Otherwise you're faced with a catch 22 situation. Non-Gor quality roleplayers want IC/OOC separation, quality, and moderate traffic. But how would you get the traffic if they wouldn't come in the first place? You would need to, before you start a high quality sim, get a core of RPers that are willing to dedicate a lot of their time to the sim to jumpstart it.

And why can't we leech off other genres? They leech off SL Gor. Leave it to some other genre to teach people how to roleplay. Like some urban sim.
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Theoden
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Re: Traffic and you

Postby Theoden » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:34 pm

Anarch Allegiere wrote:
I like the D&D model. Someone is the Game Master and puts his or her time in creating a world and storyline and other people bring the characters to interact and roleplay within that storyline. I actually was quite interested in what Rasenna tried to promise, they seemed like they wanted to try something new but instead they too were like: "Here's the sim, now go on, roleplay... Do your own thing, make your own stories."

[...]

I don't even care much for taking existing non-gorean sims as an example, because even with their 20-30k traffic they still seem like boring places to me. Even when Clearchus had 50k traffic it sometimes felt rather quiet, with 30-40 people hanging around on sim, but nobody really knowing what to roleplay with eachother, or the roleplay they -did- come up with made me facepalm. It's why I felt the need to create an "event" every weekend, to get people out of their houses and give them some form of direction and opportunities to express their characters in.


Yes, game masters to push storylines would also be critical.

In Kaelus, we had loremasters to think of new storylines and connect people, and we also had the admin team (of core roleplayers) to push storylines. Of course, pushing storylines all the time is exhausting, and if you don't push out enough or they aren't broad enough, people complain they feel excluded or not involved in the storyline, when really it is they who have characters that A. Don't make sense in that storyline or B. don't have the initiative to work to get themselves involved but still want to be involved.

I think in Amhas Cairn at the moment they have storyline generators as well, though I'm vague on the specifics. But yes, storyline generators and pushers are needed for a good sim for a general genre wide population that sometimes doesn't want to think of its own storylines.

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