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Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:41 pm
by E. Edward Gray
The whole topic is actually rather easy..

Stand your ground is a good law.. Simply enforce it as it is..

The whole Zimmerman/Martin case, well let the courts decide..

Done..

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:56 pm
by Leah
He's been charged with 2nd Degree Murder. If the State Attorney went with that charge, then she must have some pretty damning evidence, as it's basically clear just from what the public got that Manslaughter would hold up in court. The prosecutor working on the cause is said to have an iron will and she doesn't appear to give two figs for the people screaming that she should do this or that.

As far as the jury goes, the only thing they have to do is get jurors who say that they can evaluate the case fairly. It's fine for them to know about the case - in fact, most attorneys would prefer they had some knowledge of it.

But we shall see.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:00 pm
by Glaucon
Kaitlin wrote:
Glaucon wrote:Sorry, but that is nonsense. Maybe you don't like the word 'political', and of course, you can define your terms any way you want to, but... ah well... doesn't matter. Just a semantic issue. Call it non-political if you want to. *shrug*


It isn't semantics at all to point out you are clearly confusing the two issues. The polls certainly are not drawn along party lines about this incident. Far from it as clearly shown by the poll. (Now I only give a certain amount of weight to them but they do have their benefits).


1. The opinions not being divided along party-political lines doesn't mean the difference of opinions isn't political. Clearly, some republicans, like, say, Ron Paul supporters, don't feel America should rush to a military intervention in Iran. Others do. That doesn't mean that the debate over this question isn't a political one.
2. Your poll doesn't seem to show anything about opinions on this case NOT being divided along party-political lines. That wasn't something included in this poll. Sure, it does show that opinions vary significantly between those that see themselves as belonging to a specific 'race', but that doesn't prove they aren't also divided according to political party support/affiliation. As far as I know, the vast majority of African Americans in the USA vote Democrat. According to former front-running GOP candidate Cain, blacks in America have been 'brainwashed' into voting democrat. I don't have a poll handy, but I am sure you can dig up one, somewhere. And if this IS indeed the case, it may well be that the 'bias' to your team A vs B is divided as sharply along party-political lines as it is along 'ethnic' lines.

Your argument:

Let's keep the numbers simple and approximate to make the case here. Assuming that the non white population in this country who state they are democrats is skating around 45-50% if this were a heavily political focused debate you would see poll numbers that reflect that. They don't. I call it non political because it isn't.


Sorry, but the math of that doesn't add up. 31+26=52% of the non-black people questioned thought that a racial bias played a major or minor factor in the incident (doesn't state they claim they know for sure, of course... just that they think that it did). As opposed to 85% of the African Americans questioned, yes... but that isn't relevant. If your assumption that about half of African Americans state they are democrats is true, that doesn't mean that the other half states they are republican. And even if that other half WAS republican, that would only imply something about black republicans (in that in this case racial 'bias' trumps party-affiliation/support for them). It doesn't say anything about how the non-black opinion on this matter is divided. Given the 52%, it might be divided nearly perfectly along party-politican lines. Or not. Impossible to tell from this poll.

That is not the real nonsense part. The real nonsense part is where you say that the opinions in this thread follow along typical racial lines. I have no clue what the 'race' of people posting here is. I don't think you do either. I doubt it played any part in this debate, but even IF IT DID, neither me or you could tell one way or another, since this isn't a forum on which we post under our RL identities, let alone our 'race'.


Now on this point I am wondering what thread you have been reading or where you have been for the last two years. I'd be willing to bet that I could place race & nationality (which is important) for about 85-90% of the posters in this thread even if some of the actual responses to this thread and others have made race pretty clear. That said I think it is less of a factor in this thread because of the nationality diversity. The view of the US from outside it's borders tends to be more critical on some things and oddly more rosy on other things.


Sorry. I know something about Hawt's ethnic background, now. Other than that, I only have avi pictures to go on... I don't have the 'racial bias' sensitivity to 'spot' someone's ethnic bias from the posts I read here. Countries is another matter, of course. Many of us have spoken about that in the past. Based on the general demographic, I would guess that most of us are probably caucasian. The two people I have been debating with in this thread most of all are you and Linnet. I have no way of knowing for certain, but my 'mental image' of you and Linnet is 'white'. Sorry if I am wrong. There is only one frequent poster here that I imagine being black, and that is because she has a black SL avi picture. :)

Well... black... I am sure that some of us have more of a 'natural tan' than others. I don't really know when you can start calling yourself 'black' and when you are just... uhm... quite tanned. 8-)

The debate is a racial one because at the heart of the issue is did he have cause to pursue this teenager and accost him.


I do consider it quite likely that a racial bias did play a part in Zimmerman singling out Martin as a 'suspicious individual'. But I am not sure, not sure if it played a significant part (there was that infamous hoodie as well) and whether it played a part later on, in the events that led to Martin's death. Sure, I agree it is likely this would not have happened to a 17-year old teenager with blonde hair. I cannot be sure, but I suspect it would not have. Or maybe it might have, in an area that had a very low concentration of African Americans, with the 'blonde' boy having hair longer than the norm, perhaps looking 'scruffy' to whatever neighborhood watchman that was 'rating him' for 'suspiciousness'.

For me, an incident like this, if it DID go down the way I suspect it did, raises more questions than just ones about race. Like questions of whether it is a good thing to have 'gated communities' that view the outside world and teenage kids as the 'enemy'. Like whether it is smart to have amateur volunteer zealot cops going around with loaded weapons hunting for for potential burglars. To me, that sort of thing seems like a recipe for tragic incidents. To me, such questions appear important, whether or not a racial bias was involved.

What continues to make this a huge racial issue beyond just "what set this in motion" is the handling by the police. You can choose to believe it was incompetence or a lack of care due to the race of the victim.


I really don't know. I think I can form some sort of 'opinion' on Zimmerman, at least. Make an educated guess. I honestly cannot do it about how the police etc. dealt with it initially. In general, I believe it is generally good to assume incompetence and laziness before assuming evil intent, when people screw up.

This is where the poll shows it is clearly a black and white issue.


No, it does not. It does show that there are different opinions between black and white people on the case, that's all.

Whites in this country have a very positive view of our judicial system


Maybe I have been talking to the wrong white people then (because the reports they gave me wasn't all that positive, like that story of a friend, gay, half-turkish, that was hospitalized for months and left with a crippling hospital bill after a group of policemen started laying into him with their sticks without him even having the chance to resist, surrender or get a word in after getting a call and a nudge doorman at a club that he had gotten into a verbal argument with.) My impression of US law enforcement and the US justice system isn't all that rosy. But hey... I am not black. I must love moron neighborhood watchmen jacked up on adrenaline driving around looking for teenage trouble-makers.

You just said a mouthful.


Hmmm, don't know what you mean, exactly (not a native speaker).

I find the team analogy more fitting than your political analogy because that is what this issue has become. Not whether you are a republican, independent or democrat.


I made no political analogy, that I am aware of. Like the writer of that article you didn't like, I feel this case has been turned into the stuff of political debate. The 'team' thing... don't know how to classify that. To me, it seems to he rather perverse to turn cases like these into such 'team Peeta, team Gabriel (or something) debates in national media and to defend people jumping to conclusions just because you and others racism played a part.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:45 pm
by Mat
Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite. I hope that the truth comes out whatever that may be in the trial but until it does there just is no proof as of yet that race played a part in any way in this incident other than the news coverage after.

Sure we can throw up our arms and scream at the top of our lungs that racial profiling is wrong that treating someone different based on race is wrong I do not believe that is in question at all, however I have yet to see how that was done in this case. Sure some say that the police etc handled the case wrong but nobody has shown that they handled it any different than they normally would either, there has yet to be shown any pattern of behavior on the police's side that shows racial injustice in modern times at that location. The only thing offered up so far is some generic as of yet unsupported proposition that if the race were reversed that it would have been handled differently.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:54 pm
by Glaucon
Alright... I'll do the 'is it political or not' one. (All I have time for right now):

I define politics broadly.

1
a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2
: political actions, practices, or policies
3
a : political affairs or business; especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)
b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession
c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4
: the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5
a : the total complex of relations between people living in society
b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view <office politics> <ethnic politics>


I'd go with all of the above, including the ones under 5. Protesters against world poverty? Politics, in my book. Someone talking about christian values? Political. Someone talking about the right to privacy? Politics. Why do I define politics broadly? Because when stuff is part of a public debate that may (immediately or eventually) lead to collective or government action, laws, etc... it will become political (because that is about how society should be governed/ruled). I don't see discussions about racism, ethnicity etc. as being non-political, because all that is intricately linked to politics... and often those are at the center of the political stage, even.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:00 pm
by Leah
Mat Vhargon wrote:Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite. I hope that the truth comes out whatever that may be in the trial but until it does there just is no proof as of yet that race played a part in any way in this incident other than the news coverage after.

Sure we can throw up our arms and scream at the top of our lungs that racial profiling is wrong that treating someone different based on race is wrong I do not believe that is in question at all, however I have yet to see how that was done in this case. Sure some say that the police etc handled the case wrong but nobody has shown that they handled it any different than they normally would either, there has yet to be shown any pattern of behavior on the police's side that shows racial injustice in modern times at that location. The only thing offered up so far is some generic as of yet unsupported proposition that if the race were reversed that it would have been handled differently.


She hasn't charged him with a hate crime because Florida doesn't have any sort of legislation that covers hate crimes, Mat. She wasn't investigating him for a hate crime, either. The US Justice Department is doing that, and they have not yet rendered the conclusion of their investigation.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:15 pm
by Mat
Kaitlin wrote:
Mat Vhargon wrote:Still to this point no actual evidence that THIS killing was race related nor the police / prosecution's response to it. Seems that this new hard nosed prosecutor for the state who is doing her job well as far as I can tell to this point has not charged Mr. Zimmerman with a hate crime nor has the charging document even hinted that it was race related in fact it seems to have gone out of its way to say the opposite.


Apparently you haven't read the affidavit. It clearly states that Zimmerman profiled Martin.

that still has nothing to do with racial injustice it said that he profiled him not that he racially profiled him there is a big difference. By his own statement it is clear that he profiled him as he said that he looked suspicious you cannot come to such a conclusion without profiling someone and that profile may or may not have included race as a reason for suspicion we just do not know at this point.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:17 pm
by Mat
Lia wrote:
She hasn't charged him with a hate crime because Florida doesn't have any sort of legislation that covers hate crimes, Mat. She wasn't investigating him for a hate crime, either. The US Justice Department is doing that, and they have not yet rendered the conclusion of their investigation.

That is partially true I do not know if there is a separate chargeable crime under Florida law but I do know that the state of Florida does specifically track hate crimes in of itself.

As for the Justice Department investigation we will have to see, they are privy to more information than we have at this time, however just on what has been released thus far I fail to see how they can conclude that it was a race related crime.

Actually my prediction is that Mr. Zimmerman will end up with a plea deal and agree to manslaughter and that will be the end of it all.

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:13 pm
by Mat
As more information is made available from the FBI investigation it seems to affirm that this was not a racially motivated crime.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Re: Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman, Stand Your Ground Law, etc.

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:28 pm
by Mat
Looks like the judge will be replaced as it was ruled that Mr. Martin was not likely to get a fair trial by that judge.